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	<title>Comments on: Loans for Library School?</title>
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	<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/</link>
	<description>Whatever It Is, I&#039;m Against It</description>
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		<title>By: publicservice</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-91843</link>
		<dc:creator>publicservice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-91843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[public service announcement:

don&#039;t go to library school. that is all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>public service announcement:</p>
<p>don&#8217;t go to library school. that is all.</p>
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		<title>By: Randal Powell</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-53223</link>
		<dc:creator>Randal Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 22:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-53223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, it&#039;s completely stupid and ridiculous.  But you know what?  If you already know how to program in C, then you&#039;re intelligent enough to build a database-backed website.

I would check out the free resources online to fill in any gaps you have in your technical ability.  You can use the Google Keyword tool to look for areas ripe for profitable websites.  Look at the competition: Can you provide better quality information or more sophisticated interactive capabilities?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s completely stupid and ridiculous.  But you know what?  If you already know how to program in C, then you&#8217;re intelligent enough to build a database-backed website.</p>
<p>I would check out the free resources online to fill in any gaps you have in your technical ability.  You can use the Google Keyword tool to look for areas ripe for profitable websites.  Look at the competition: Can you provide better quality information or more sophisticated interactive capabilities?</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy M.</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-53121</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-53121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I will graduate in May 2012.  My Academic Library class has us studying job postings an an assignment.  It seems like all the library jobs require years of experience, lots of advanced computer skills, teaching experience, an MLIS, more  graduate work in a specialized field, and usually proof of professional advancement (such as publications), etc.  How on earth is a new graduate going to meet those kinds of requirements if they are switching careers, not to mention the bias against older job applicants who may not be &quot;energetic&quot; like the postings require.  (I am energetic obviously if I am running a home, doing graduate work and working part-time at a college as a tutor).  After we were enrolled and half way through the basic core classes, some of the professors starting telling us that our degree was more than just for libraries, that we had to be &quot;creative&quot; in looking for employment and that we were information specialists.  All right, I looked at government jobs for information specialists:  gee, I &quot;might&quot; qualify for a clerk job if I am lucky.  The problem is that once you take out the student loans, you cannot quit school until you find a job because you cannot pay the student loans that will come due in six months without the  job in the first place.  It is a vicious cycle that I am now facing.  I have to stay in school beyond May because an MLIS just doesn&#039;t translate to many types of jobs.  Even though I have tutored at the college level for years, I was never a bonafide instructor.  My credit rating is perfect and I cannot face the thought of student loan default.  However, as a career change, this misinformation/hogwash  by the OOL and the ALA about job prospects has lead to, most likely, a really bad decision on my part.  As a Displaced Homemaker with no backup social network due to no parents to fall back on (both deceased), a spouse who moved to greener pastures, and with the lack of 21 years of job experience due to raising this nation&#039;s next generation, I find myself in the same boat as the 20-something year olds who cannot find a job.  The only difference is that my age group is &quot;invisible&quot; and discriminated because of the assumption that we cannot learn computer skills.  Ask the students that I tutored in C Progamming and Statistics if I have computer skills or a brain, lol.  However, it is impossible to even get my foot in the door for an interview when the Human Resource personnel see my year of high school graduation, calculate my age, add that to my 21 years out of the work force, and start making assumptions.  I wish I could just say I was part of a protected ethnic/diversity group, but I think that would be exposed the moment I set foot in the door. lol.  OMG, there is no solution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will graduate in May 2012.  My Academic Library class has us studying job postings an an assignment.  It seems like all the library jobs require years of experience, lots of advanced computer skills, teaching experience, an MLIS, more  graduate work in a specialized field, and usually proof of professional advancement (such as publications), etc.  How on earth is a new graduate going to meet those kinds of requirements if they are switching careers, not to mention the bias against older job applicants who may not be &#8220;energetic&#8221; like the postings require.  (I am energetic obviously if I am running a home, doing graduate work and working part-time at a college as a tutor).  After we were enrolled and half way through the basic core classes, some of the professors starting telling us that our degree was more than just for libraries, that we had to be &#8220;creative&#8221; in looking for employment and that we were information specialists.  All right, I looked at government jobs for information specialists:  gee, I &#8220;might&#8221; qualify for a clerk job if I am lucky.  The problem is that once you take out the student loans, you cannot quit school until you find a job because you cannot pay the student loans that will come due in six months without the  job in the first place.  It is a vicious cycle that I am now facing.  I have to stay in school beyond May because an MLIS just doesn&#8217;t translate to many types of jobs.  Even though I have tutored at the college level for years, I was never a bonafide instructor.  My credit rating is perfect and I cannot face the thought of student loan default.  However, as a career change, this misinformation/hogwash  by the OOL and the ALA about job prospects has lead to, most likely, a really bad decision on my part.  As a Displaced Homemaker with no backup social network due to no parents to fall back on (both deceased), a spouse who moved to greener pastures, and with the lack of 21 years of job experience due to raising this nation&#8217;s next generation, I find myself in the same boat as the 20-something year olds who cannot find a job.  The only difference is that my age group is &#8220;invisible&#8221; and discriminated because of the assumption that we cannot learn computer skills.  Ask the students that I tutored in C Progamming and Statistics if I have computer skills or a brain, lol.  However, it is impossible to even get my foot in the door for an interview when the Human Resource personnel see my year of high school graduation, calculate my age, add that to my 21 years out of the work force, and start making assumptions.  I wish I could just say I was part of a protected ethnic/diversity group, but I think that would be exposed the moment I set foot in the door. lol.  OMG, there is no solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-51405</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-51405</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A major problem is that most library students, like gamblers, think they can beat the odds in finding a job. It’s like the over production process of PhDs that also cannot find teaching jobs. The schools, however, propagating the job shortage theory, do manage to stay in business. The next economic bubble to burst is the potential student loan default crisis, and that will further drive down the economy. When my father went to school in the 1960s, school loans were practically unheard of, most students worked part-time night jobs to pay for school, and where debt free upon graduation. Now some private school tuition-board fees run 50K per year? When students graduate, they owe hundreds and thousands, but can’t get jobs and become indentured to paying those school loans back that can never be discharged. It is a big racked. When I went to library school, I worked at an engineering firm in data management, had my employer pay 100% for my MLIS and then got them to pay for an MBA too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A major problem is that most library students, like gamblers, think they can beat the odds in finding a job. It’s like the over production process of PhDs that also cannot find teaching jobs. The schools, however, propagating the job shortage theory, do manage to stay in business. The next economic bubble to burst is the potential student loan default crisis, and that will further drive down the economy. When my father went to school in the 1960s, school loans were practically unheard of, most students worked part-time night jobs to pay for school, and where debt free upon graduation. Now some private school tuition-board fees run 50K per year? When students graduate, they owe hundreds and thousands, but can’t get jobs and become indentured to paying those school loans back that can never be discharged. It is a big racked. When I went to library school, I worked at an engineering firm in data management, had my employer pay 100% for my MLIS and then got them to pay for an MBA too.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-44666</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 05:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-44666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Missed out on this one -- need to pop in more often! Listen to TechServing You who is spot on.  I also graduated right before the crunch, had lots of &quot;pre professional&quot; experience, and with a lot of effort, some luck and the ability to move anywhere, landed a great mid level job several months out of school. I&#039;m now in a supervisory position and will likely move on in another year.  I didn&#039;t have to pay for my schooling -- an assistantship did that so loans were paid off in four years since they never got very big. Taking on loans makes sense when it means moving up in a profession, but going into student loans for an MLS with no experience beyond page work, is generally not a good plan. Unless, apparently, you plan to move to Canada.

Blatant Barry&#039;s page in Library Journal declared we needed to bring on the young librarians.  Here&#039;s a portion of what I wrote in response: 
 
There are very few jobs once these tech savvy MLIS graduates have finished the degree. What does that matter? Let them volunteer to shelve books, or let them work for next to nothing in &quot;assistant jobs&quot; year after year, jobs for which no degree beyond a high school diploma and maybe a little college is required. Yes, let&#039;s please let&#039;s tell these hopeful students to keep coming, that the profession needs them and that the jobs will be there for them when they graduate with non dischargeable student loan debt. Some day there will be a whole bunch of librarians retiring! How many years have we been saying that as a profession?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Missed out on this one &#8212; need to pop in more often! Listen to TechServing You who is spot on.  I also graduated right before the crunch, had lots of &#8220;pre professional&#8221; experience, and with a lot of effort, some luck and the ability to move anywhere, landed a great mid level job several months out of school. I&#8217;m now in a supervisory position and will likely move on in another year.  I didn&#8217;t have to pay for my schooling &#8212; an assistantship did that so loans were paid off in four years since they never got very big. Taking on loans makes sense when it means moving up in a profession, but going into student loans for an MLS with no experience beyond page work, is generally not a good plan. Unless, apparently, you plan to move to Canada.</p>
<p>Blatant Barry&#8217;s page in Library Journal declared we needed to bring on the young librarians.  Here&#8217;s a portion of what I wrote in response: </p>
<p>There are very few jobs once these tech savvy MLIS graduates have finished the degree. What does that matter? Let them volunteer to shelve books, or let them work for next to nothing in &#8220;assistant jobs&#8221; year after year, jobs for which no degree beyond a high school diploma and maybe a little college is required. Yes, let&#8217;s please let&#8217;s tell these hopeful students to keep coming, that the profession needs them and that the jobs will be there for them when they graduate with non dischargeable student loan debt. Some day there will be a whole bunch of librarians retiring! How many years have we been saying that as a profession?</p>
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		<title>By: muppetzinspace</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-44583</link>
		<dc:creator>muppetzinspace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-44583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The main reason I didn&#039;t have library experience while getting my MLIS was because I wasn&#039;t taking out loans. I needed a job that would help me make ends meet while paying for my tuition, a library gig wasn&#039;t going to pay me nearly enough as a job as a secretary would. Now I&#039;ve got a library job that I&#039;m over qualified for, but atleast I don&#039;t have loans to pay off.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main reason I didn&#8217;t have library experience while getting my MLIS was because I wasn&#8217;t taking out loans. I needed a job that would help me make ends meet while paying for my tuition, a library gig wasn&#8217;t going to pay me nearly enough as a job as a secretary would. Now I&#8217;ve got a library job that I&#8217;m over qualified for, but atleast I don&#8217;t have loans to pay off.</p>
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		<title>By: muppetzinspace</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-44582</link>
		<dc:creator>muppetzinspace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-44582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even people with MBAs and JDs are having trouble getting employment with the kinds of salaries they were promised before they started school. Most grads across the board are screwed. The only fields that aren&#039;t are IT and health care.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even people with MBAs and JDs are having trouble getting employment with the kinds of salaries they were promised before they started school. Most grads across the board are screwed. The only fields that aren&#8217;t are IT and health care.</p>
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		<title>By: muppetzinspace</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-44581</link>
		<dc:creator>muppetzinspace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-44581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I got similar advice when I told a friend who&#039;s a public librarian that I was going to library school. She said, &quot;you&#039;ll be poor but happy.&quot; I actually got paid more in my previous work as a secretary than as a librarian. It boogles the mind that people would pay me $40k a year plus full benefits to do their xeroxing and draft form letters but no benefits and less than half the pay for staffing their library. I love what I do know, and would never go back to being a secretary, but it&#039;s much harder to do what you love and barely get by versus doing a job I absolutely hate and doing reasonably well financially.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got similar advice when I told a friend who&#8217;s a public librarian that I was going to library school. She said, &#8220;you&#8217;ll be poor but happy.&#8221; I actually got paid more in my previous work as a secretary than as a librarian. It boogles the mind that people would pay me $40k a year plus full benefits to do their xeroxing and draft form letters but no benefits and less than half the pay for staffing their library. I love what I do know, and would never go back to being a secretary, but it&#8217;s much harder to do what you love and barely get by versus doing a job I absolutely hate and doing reasonably well financially.</p>
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		<title>By: Techserving You</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-44327</link>
		<dc:creator>Techserving You</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 03:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-44327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Joyce - you don&#039;t know what you&#039;re talking about.

I&#039;m American, but I went to library school in Canada.  On the one hand... the government there seemed to employ half of my classmates... they have a huge bureaucracy.

But I must point out... librarian, specifically, is one profession for which NAFTA is beneficial.  Canada does NOT undertake the labor market assessment for librarian jobs to make sure there aren&#039;t enough Canadian librarians before employing an American.  I actually had several fellow American graduates who got jobs in Canada.  Librarians can cross the border freely to take jobs in Canada.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Joyce &#8211; you don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m American, but I went to library school in Canada.  On the one hand&#8230; the government there seemed to employ half of my classmates&#8230; they have a huge bureaucracy.</p>
<p>But I must point out&#8230; librarian, specifically, is one profession for which NAFTA is beneficial.  Canada does NOT undertake the labor market assessment for librarian jobs to make sure there aren&#8217;t enough Canadian librarians before employing an American.  I actually had several fellow American graduates who got jobs in Canada.  Librarians can cross the border freely to take jobs in Canada.</p>
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		<title>By: Techserving You</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2011/09/19/loans-for-library-school/comment-page-1/#comment-44326</link>
		<dc:creator>Techserving You</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 03:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1077#comment-44326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Meh.  I agree in general, but people need to make decisions based on their own circumstances.  I had worked in top academic libraries for about a decade before going to library school.  I was working at an Ivy League university and could have gone to school locally on a part-time basis, and had it entirely paid for.  But I wanted to go full-time, to a real university, to move to a new city, to meet friends from other (real) programs, etc..  And so I did.  Ignoring the &quot;opportunity costs&quot; for a moment, in two years after library school, I had made back - in increased pay - what I had to borrow to go to school.  Soon I will also have paid back those opportunity costs.  (I don&#039;t really care about those, though... there are intangibles... I lived in an awesome city, met great people (mostly not in the LIS program) and generally considered it a wonderful experience (NOT for the library school part, but everything else.)  And I would have had those opportunity costs not matter what I went back to school for.

Some people have a better chance of getting a good job after library school than other people do.  If you&#039;ve never worked in a library, or you&#039;ve been a page somewhere or something, you probably have little chance of getting a job anytime around graduation.  But that is not the case for everyone.  I graduated right before the economic collapse, got a great job, and then in the midst of this recession, switched to an even better job.

Kayla - I can assure you, though, that if you don&#039;t already have a lot of experience, with your plan, you&#039;re going to have a hard time getting a good job.  YES academic libraries - even at wealthy schools - have laid people off or forced people into early retirement.  Harvard did it a year or two ago.  At the same time, many of them have also not filled vacant positions.  Yes, there are SOME jobs.  You&#039;ll search and say, &quot;oh, there are plenty of jobs!&quot;  But I&#039;ve been monitoring the academic library job market for years, and it&#039;s never been worse than it is now.  For every job posted, there will be a bunch of people like you wanting it, as well as a bunch of people who actually have experience doing the exact tasks of the job.  If you do secure a position, even at a top Ivy League university, you&#039;ll likely start in the $40,000Ks.

Your description of what you imagine you&#039;ll be doing also shows an utter lack of understanding of the jobs available.  I mean, what do you want to do?  Scan things all day?  Work as a bibliographer?  At some top libararies, they have PhDs working as bibliographers.  At other top libraries, they have librarians without so much as a second masters or even an undergraduate degree in the field for which they select... and that&#039;s fine with them.  You&#039;re not going to be sought after.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meh.  I agree in general, but people need to make decisions based on their own circumstances.  I had worked in top academic libraries for about a decade before going to library school.  I was working at an Ivy League university and could have gone to school locally on a part-time basis, and had it entirely paid for.  But I wanted to go full-time, to a real university, to move to a new city, to meet friends from other (real) programs, etc..  And so I did.  Ignoring the &#8220;opportunity costs&#8221; for a moment, in two years after library school, I had made back &#8211; in increased pay &#8211; what I had to borrow to go to school.  Soon I will also have paid back those opportunity costs.  (I don&#8217;t really care about those, though&#8230; there are intangibles&#8230; I lived in an awesome city, met great people (mostly not in the LIS program) and generally considered it a wonderful experience (NOT for the library school part, but everything else.)  And I would have had those opportunity costs not matter what I went back to school for.</p>
<p>Some people have a better chance of getting a good job after library school than other people do.  If you&#8217;ve never worked in a library, or you&#8217;ve been a page somewhere or something, you probably have little chance of getting a job anytime around graduation.  But that is not the case for everyone.  I graduated right before the economic collapse, got a great job, and then in the midst of this recession, switched to an even better job.</p>
<p>Kayla &#8211; I can assure you, though, that if you don&#8217;t already have a lot of experience, with your plan, you&#8217;re going to have a hard time getting a good job.  YES academic libraries &#8211; even at wealthy schools &#8211; have laid people off or forced people into early retirement.  Harvard did it a year or two ago.  At the same time, many of them have also not filled vacant positions.  Yes, there are SOME jobs.  You&#8217;ll search and say, &#8220;oh, there are plenty of jobs!&#8221;  But I&#8217;ve been monitoring the academic library job market for years, and it&#8217;s never been worse than it is now.  For every job posted, there will be a bunch of people like you wanting it, as well as a bunch of people who actually have experience doing the exact tasks of the job.  If you do secure a position, even at a top Ivy League university, you&#8217;ll likely start in the $40,000Ks.</p>
<p>Your description of what you imagine you&#8217;ll be doing also shows an utter lack of understanding of the jobs available.  I mean, what do you want to do?  Scan things all day?  Work as a bibliographer?  At some top libararies, they have PhDs working as bibliographers.  At other top libraries, they have librarians without so much as a second masters or even an undergraduate degree in the field for which they select&#8230; and that&#8217;s fine with them.  You&#8217;re not going to be sought after.</p>
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