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	<title>Comments on: Librarians Decide What is Reality</title>
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	<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/</link>
	<description>Whatever It Is, I&#039;m Against It</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:18:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: I Like Books</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-192045</link>
		<dc:creator>I Like Books</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-192045</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eh, the Conservative Christian Right is only a subset of Christianity, although people tend to think that they define and control it. The CCR thinks so, too.

The Catholics, for one, have made their peace with evolution long ago. They have an uneasy alliance with the right because of other issues. But get into, say, Lutherans or Episcopalians, and you&#039;re probably sitting farther to the left.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh, the Conservative Christian Right is only a subset of Christianity, although people tend to think that they define and control it. The CCR thinks so, too.</p>
<p>The Catholics, for one, have made their peace with evolution long ago. They have an uneasy alliance with the right because of other issues. But get into, say, Lutherans or Episcopalians, and you&#8217;re probably sitting farther to the left.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-189774</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-189774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many young earth creationists publish in mainstream science journals.

(http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/doing-good-science/2011/10/19/is-being-a-good-scientist-a-matter-of-what-you-do-or-of-what-you-feel-in-your-heart/ )

for example, see this article about one who does, Todd Wood: 

http://www.colossianforum.org/2012/09/03/tim-stafford-on-a-tale-of-two-scientists-and-science-as-a-gift/

Here is a super-fascinating book review this guy did: 

http://www.colossianforum.org/2012/10/04/pull-up-a-seat-on-the-other-side-of-the-dialogue-table/

And finally, going right along with this post: http://thenewcreationism.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/creationist-books-in-uk-public-libraries/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many young earth creationists publish in mainstream science journals.</p>
<p>(<a href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/doing-good-science/2011/10/19/is-being-a-good-scientist-a-matter-of-what-you-do-or-of-what-you-feel-in-your-heart/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/doing-good-science/2011/10/19/is-being-a-good-scientist-a-matter-of-what-you-do-or-of-what-you-feel-in-your-heart/</a> )</p>
<p>for example, see this article about one who does, Todd Wood: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.colossianforum.org/2012/09/03/tim-stafford-on-a-tale-of-two-scientists-and-science-as-a-gift/" rel="nofollow">http://www.colossianforum.org/2012/09/03/tim-stafford-on-a-tale-of-two-scientists-and-science-as-a-gift/</a></p>
<p>Here is a super-fascinating book review this guy did: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.colossianforum.org/2012/10/04/pull-up-a-seat-on-the-other-side-of-the-dialogue-table/" rel="nofollow">http://www.colossianforum.org/2012/10/04/pull-up-a-seat-on-the-other-side-of-the-dialogue-table/</a></p>
<p>And finally, going right along with this post: <a href="http://thenewcreationism.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/creationist-books-in-uk-public-libraries/" rel="nofollow">http://thenewcreationism.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/creationist-books-in-uk-public-libraries/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-189579</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-189579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m afraid I&#039;d say, &quot;here&#039;s a microscope and some tweezers -- if you find some science in it, we&#039;ll consider reclassifying it.&quot;  Which is why it&#039;s a good thing (I suppose) that I&#039;m in the basement tending the machines, not behind the Circ. desk.

Seriously, though, thanks for asking the question.  It&#039;s one that should be carefully considered.

Maybe in the future (next Thursday?) when the stacks are closed and compressed, and robots fetch the books from cold dark underground vaults with nary a human in sight, we can give up classification systems as we know them and just serial-number the books.  Invite people to tag the records themselves:  2 thought this was Science, 127 Religion, 1 Politics, and 7 Humor.  Imagine being able to ask the catalog things like &quot;show me books on paleontology that might be science but there is more than so much disagreement about that.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid I&#8217;d say, &#8220;here&#8217;s a microscope and some tweezers &#8212; if you find some science in it, we&#8217;ll consider reclassifying it.&#8221;  Which is why it&#8217;s a good thing (I suppose) that I&#8217;m in the basement tending the machines, not behind the Circ. desk.</p>
<p>Seriously, though, thanks for asking the question.  It&#8217;s one that should be carefully considered.</p>
<p>Maybe in the future (next Thursday?) when the stacks are closed and compressed, and robots fetch the books from cold dark underground vaults with nary a human in sight, we can give up classification systems as we know them and just serial-number the books.  Invite people to tag the records themselves:  2 thought this was Science, 127 Religion, 1 Politics, and 7 Humor.  Imagine being able to ask the catalog things like &#8220;show me books on paleontology that might be science but there is more than so much disagreement about that.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Kleinman of SafeLibraries</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-188509</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Kleinman of SafeLibraries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-188509</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Pizza&amp;IceCream, I simply pointed out that ex-gay books are routinely excluded as an example to what the AL was saying, and I even cited to her own writing on that topic.

I see you have other interests.  That&#039;s nice, but it doesn&#039;t need to be on AL&#039;s blog.  Contact me via email if you wish further off-topic discussion, but I know little about what you are saying that&#039;s off-topic. 

It is interesting that your &quot;Libraries should not collect it&quot; statement sort of illustrates what the AL was saying.

And now, Pizza&amp;IceCream, your pseudonym has made me hungry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pizza&amp;IceCream, I simply pointed out that ex-gay books are routinely excluded as an example to what the AL was saying, and I even cited to her own writing on that topic.</p>
<p>I see you have other interests.  That&#8217;s nice, but it doesn&#8217;t need to be on AL&#8217;s blog.  Contact me via email if you wish further off-topic discussion, but I know little about what you are saying that&#8217;s off-topic. </p>
<p>It is interesting that your &#8220;Libraries should not collect it&#8221; statement sort of illustrates what the AL was saying.</p>
<p>And now, Pizza&amp;IceCream, your pseudonym has made me hungry.</p>
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		<title>By: Way Barra</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-188287</link>
		<dc:creator>Way Barra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 17:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-188287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re overcomplicating the issue, Dan. It&#039;s a simple matter of understanding your audience and tailoring your message accordingly.

There&#039;s nothing wrong, for example, with a linking a PETA representative&#039;s comments on a National Beef Council blog, but one has to expect they would be received skeptically, at best.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re overcomplicating the issue, Dan. It&#8217;s a simple matter of understanding your audience and tailoring your message accordingly.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s nothing wrong, for example, with a linking a PETA representative&#8217;s comments on a National Beef Council blog, but one has to expect they would be received skeptically, at best.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Kleinman of SafeLibraries</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-188156</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Kleinman of SafeLibraries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-188156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Way Barra said, &quot;If you want to be taken seriously as a public/school library advocate, it might be best to avoid citing sources like the Cato Institute, which disapprove of the very idea of public libraries and schools.&quot;  Setting aside the ad hominem argument that I&#039;m not &quot;taken seriously,&quot; apparently this free speech advocate advocates that free speech is acceptable (&quot;taken seriously&quot;) only if one constrains oneself to approved paths of thought.  So I have the free speech I want as long as I think like ... Way Barra.

The Cato Institute man and the LJ&#039;s AL both said that librarians set the playing field then complain when people don&#039;t play nice.  I am allowed to make that observation without being warned to avoid doing so because of an unrelated matter.  Is there free speech if one is constrained to quote from only from politically approved sources?

By the way, notice Way Barra just set the playing field of approved thought by saying, &quot;it might be best to avoid citing sources like the Cato Institute&quot; if I &quot;want to be taken seriously as a public/school library advocate.&quot;  He/she is clearly not a free speech advocate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Way Barra said, &#8220;If you want to be taken seriously as a public/school library advocate, it might be best to avoid citing sources like the Cato Institute, which disapprove of the very idea of public libraries and schools.&#8221;  Setting aside the ad hominem argument that I&#8217;m not &#8220;taken seriously,&#8221; apparently this free speech advocate advocates that free speech is acceptable (&#8220;taken seriously&#8221;) only if one constrains oneself to approved paths of thought.  So I have the free speech I want as long as I think like &#8230; Way Barra.</p>
<p>The Cato Institute man and the LJ&#8217;s AL both said that librarians set the playing field then complain when people don&#8217;t play nice.  I am allowed to make that observation without being warned to avoid doing so because of an unrelated matter.  Is there free speech if one is constrained to quote from only from politically approved sources?</p>
<p>By the way, notice Way Barra just set the playing field of approved thought by saying, &#8220;it might be best to avoid citing sources like the Cato Institute&#8221; if I &#8220;want to be taken seriously as a public/school library advocate.&#8221;  He/she is clearly not a free speech advocate.</p>
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		<title>By: Pizza&#38;IceCream</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-187964</link>
		<dc:creator>Pizza&#38;IceCream</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 04:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-187964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dan, you are presenting a re-warmed &quot;teach the controversy&quot; argument. Your position goes directly into Flying Spaghetti Monster territory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster). It&#039;s unverifiable but because someone believes it, does the library has to cater to it?

No.

This poppycock is coming from the same group of scientists that say the jury is still out for the age of the Earth and that evolution is &quot;just a theory&quot;, but they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that homosexuality can be cured.

Wrong.

Libraries should not collect it. It&#039;s not suppressing ideas; you can still go online to read websites that can tell you that fairy tale. You are welcome to your beliefs, but you cannot masquerade them around as scientific facts.   This is about refusing to collect bad science.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, you are presenting a re-warmed &#8220;teach the controversy&#8221; argument. Your position goes directly into Flying Spaghetti Monster territory (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster</a>). It&#8217;s unverifiable but because someone believes it, does the library has to cater to it?</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>This poppycock is coming from the same group of scientists that say the jury is still out for the age of the Earth and that evolution is &#8220;just a theory&#8221;, but they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that homosexuality can be cured.</p>
<p>Wrong.</p>
<p>Libraries should not collect it. It&#8217;s not suppressing ideas; you can still go online to read websites that can tell you that fairy tale. You are welcome to your beliefs, but you cannot masquerade them around as scientific facts.   This is about refusing to collect bad science.</p>
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		<title>By: Way Barra</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-187909</link>
		<dc:creator>Way Barra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 03:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-187909</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No one said you said those things, Dan, but anyone who took five minutes to read the second interview you linked to would know that Neal McCluskey did. 

And try not to misinterpret constructive criticism for personal attacks. If you want to be taken seriously as a public/school library advocate, it might be best to avoid citing sources like the Cato Institute, which disapprove of the very idea of public libraries and schools.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one said you said those things, Dan, but anyone who took five minutes to read the second interview you linked to would know that Neal McCluskey did. </p>
<p>And try not to misinterpret constructive criticism for personal attacks. If you want to be taken seriously as a public/school library advocate, it might be best to avoid citing sources like the Cato Institute, which disapprove of the very idea of public libraries and schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Kleinman of SafeLibraries</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-187899</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Kleinman of SafeLibraries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 03:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-187899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Way Barra, I didn&#039;t say that.  You are putting words in my mouth then attacking me for what you said I said that I didn&#039;t say.  

All I said was, &quot;I just found another person essentially saying what the AL is saying.&quot;  Then I backed it up with quotes and citations after your first typically off topic comment that has become your sine qua non.  That&#039;s it.  Troll elsewhere.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Way Barra, I didn&#8217;t say that.  You are putting words in my mouth then attacking me for what you said I said that I didn&#8217;t say.  </p>
<p>All I said was, &#8220;I just found another person essentially saying what the AL is saying.&#8221;  Then I backed it up with quotes and citations after your first typically off topic comment that has become your sine qua non.  That&#8217;s it.  Troll elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Way Barra</title>
		<link>http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/2012/10/08/librarians-decide-what-is-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-187898</link>
		<dc:creator>Way Barra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 03:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lj.libraryjournal.com/blogs/annoyedlibrarian/?p=1600#comment-187898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, I see now. If you ignore all the Libertarian boilerplate, the &quot;privatize the shelves&quot; bits, and the &quot;...it (government) should get out of the business of running libraries and schools&quot; sections, and just focus on the two or three sentences that seem to support Mr. Kleinman&#039;s position, then yes, they are essentially saying the same thing.

I stand corrected.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I see now. If you ignore all the Libertarian boilerplate, the &#8220;privatize the shelves&#8221; bits, and the &#8220;&#8230;it (government) should get out of the business of running libraries and schools&#8221; sections, and just focus on the two or three sentences that seem to support Mr. Kleinman&#8217;s position, then yes, they are essentially saying the same thing.</p>
<p>I stand corrected.</p>
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